Adjust FOB/mitigation time

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Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby Pie Eater » 05 Dec 2018, 21:49

This suggestion is here because it kind off feels unfair to have both option working at maximum when a significantly bigger faction caps you. The current system is a great idea, don't get me wrong, but where you focus on equal chances (eg: outnumber buff), having both of these elements in action actually works against this system.
The reason why this is unfair is because as an outnumbered faction, you often dont have the time/the people to scout for all of these FOBs, that can be replaced even faster by the significantly bigger faction. They lose one FOB, they either immediatly have the opportunity to retake them, or place new ones if they hadn't gotten any back-up FOBs operational in advance of the cap. This FOB means that they can often arrive faster at the targeted location than the defending faction (seeing that in preparation to a cap all close FOBs can be destroyed or hijacked from the defendants side), and neither does the defending side have the resources to place all those FOBs back, since they are outnumbered and kind off need everyone to actually help in the fight.

So I suggest the following ideas:
-remove FOBs and keep mitigation time
-remove mitigation time and keep FOBs
-adjust the time it takes to spawn in FOBs according to the amount of people (not the outnumber buff) your faction has
-Significantly reduce the mitigation time when the enemy outnumbers in people participating

These suggestions come, because the significantly outnumbering faction has the means to move way more troops, cover more area, recover more stuff, put more pressure onto the point and stall possible mitigation timer way harder than the outnumbered faction actually can, thus to create a more equal chance system, these things should be considered to be altered as well.

feel free to suggest other things/say why current system is a good one, as long as you decently give your arguements that are sensible

(yes this suggestion comes after a cap but no this is not out of saltyness for that cap, this cap just made it stand out enough again for me to decide and make a suggestion)
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby Logywoo2 » 05 Dec 2018, 21:53

The mitigation time was already reduced to be workable. The problem is not the time it takes for the full mitigation, it's actually being able to clear the point to get the mitigation bar to come up. That is faction specific, not an issue with the server. The current system is fine the way it is and there is no need to change it. -1
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby Pie Eater » 05 Dec 2018, 22:02

The mitigation time was already reduced to be workable. The problem is not the time it takes for the full mitigation, it's actually being able to clear the point to get the mitigation bar to come up.

I think that today's capture really proved the opposite, we had taken control over the point, but we couldn't handle every 5 seconds someone new dropping in, due to your amount of numbers. Even if y'all had to come all the way from your HQ you could've stalled it for a very long time because of the amount of people that can stall it. Enough stalling to get your AS there for example.
The mitigation time was adjusted because for some points it was ridiculously long (even greater than the cap time itself), not because outnumbering factions didn't have enough time to reconquer the location.
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby Logywoo2 » 05 Dec 2018, 23:00

Pie Eater wrote:Even if y'all had to come all the way from your HQ you could've stalled it for a very long time because of the amount of people that can stall it.

To me this doesn't seem like a server problem, it's a faction problem like I stated in my previous reply. If you can't keep us off point even if we're coming from our HQ then clearly it's a you problem and not a server problem. I recommend you work on your strategies a bit more. There's also the scavenger role that allows you to search for valuable vehicles such as mobile spawns and rather than just taking them, why don't you just blow them up so that they can't be taken back again and therefore the enemy has to come from their HQ.
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby krpajda » 05 Dec 2018, 23:07

The thing is, you cant respawn at fob if you get wounded. maybe the condition for this could be broadened? For example, if you get killed by explosives, back to hq you go.
This would make wiping caps and mitigating by using combined arms easier, as you will probably end up blowing most people up if you bring vehicle support, but at the same time, wouldnt make selecting where you will cap the trivial "well this is closest to the border" thing it was before.
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby Pie Eater » 06 Dec 2018, 02:05

krpajda wrote:The thing is, you cant respawn at fob if you get wounded. maybe the condition for this could be broadened? For example, if you get killed by explosives, back to hq you go.
This would make wiping caps and mitigating by using combined arms easier, as you will probably end up blowing most people up if you bring vehicle support, but at the same time, wouldnt make selecting where you will cap the trivial "well this is closest to the border" thing it was before.


this is a really nice idea, but instead of explosions it should be by gun-fire. Think about it, droppers coming in to drop at the start are most often taken out by the GS or AS that's present on the point, so they can use their FOB when this happens. However, once you gain control over an area, the new droppers from the attacking side most often are gunned down by the ground troops, who most often still have some damage buff left (at least talking from previous experience). After a big wipe, which would have been done by most likely AS or GS, they can use that FOB, but they only get one shot at it since the most likely scenario after that is getting shot down by guns.
the chances of losing an actual decently gained control become smaller, but the FOBs still are important to place correctly
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby NeoSacratif » 06 Dec 2018, 12:48

Yes, I agree, having two mechanics to balance faction HQ distance brings more disbalance instead. There must be tweaks or removals of either mitigation time, or FOBs. For me, I would rather sacrifise mitigation, as I don't think game should forgive failure to attack.

+1 to mitigation removal, and passive approval on every other solution
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby Logywoo2 » 06 Dec 2018, 14:13

NeoSacratif wrote:Yes, I agree, having two mechanics to balance faction HQ distance brings more disbalance instead. There must be tweaks or removals of either mitigation time, or FOBs. For me, I would rather sacrifise mitigation, as I don't think game should forgive failure to attack.

+1 to mitigation removal, and passive approval on every other solution

Removing mitigation just can't happen since it was added to stop the spam of helis. With mitigation currently you need someone on point to mitigate so that rotor is not spammed. Removing mitigation means you get rotor spam
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby krpajda » 06 Dec 2018, 20:19

Pie Eater wrote:this is a really nice idea, but instead of explosions it should be by gun-fire. Think about it, droppers coming in to drop at the start are most often taken out by the GS or AS that's present on the point, so they can use their FOB when this happens. However, once you gain control over an area, the new droppers from the attacking side most often are gunned down by the ground troops, who most often still have some damage buff left (at least talking from previous experience). After a big wipe, which would have been done by most likely AS or GS, they can use that FOB, but they only get one shot at it since the most likely scenario after that is getting shot down by guns.
the chances of losing an actual decently gained control become smaller, but the FOBs still are important to place correctly

I guess we interpret different things as desirable.
Currently, tanks and helicopters shred ground troops, droppers on parachutes reliably (if slowly) kill those, and ground troops have an easy time killing anything slowly flying around on a giant "shoot me" sign with the hp of a regular person but only about half the damage.

If you get sent to hq from being blown up, the focus of whoever is currently on point is to keep as many vehicles alive as possible, which would cause huge costs to attackers on long caps, and requires defenders to come with all of them at once so some of them stay alive for when people drop again.
Meanwhile, if the same happens from just people dropping on parachute and shooting you, you further discourage people from bringing lots of support, making the fights reliant on quick coordination and capture balance management (read as: metagaming). You would also turn tanks into ragdoll machines that are best used to just throw people off their feet so your ground troops can shoot them and send them on a three minute trip back instead of a 60 second one.
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby keeri » 06 Dec 2018, 21:01

Logywoo2 wrote:The mitigation time was already reduced

it was the minimum mitigation rate which was increased, making it easier to mitigate locations pretty far away from attackers. (not the recent 16km capture, which, after a review, already seems to have a reasonable time to mitigate)

Pie Eater wrote:we couldn't handle every 5 seconds someone new dropping in

the capture balance has a slow decay rate, meaning both new and old attackers are counted for quite some time

--

both sides can use mobile spawns, and the defenders are greatly rewarded for making areas significantly more interesting with faction constructions

i'll consider any change i see useful or necessary, but I believe you can achieve better results if you follow the advice above
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Re: Adjust FOB/mitigation time

Postby Pie Eater » 07 Dec 2018, 19:23

Noone said that both sides couldn't use these mobile spawns, but as I mentioned, the advantage using these lies with the faction that has way more people online, they can move way more troops to defend FOBs, they can use more troops to find defenders FOBs, and also at the start of a capture the attackers side usually has the FOB advantage as well
Before starting a cap you place FOBs, activate them, destroy others, however the defenders don't get the chance to do this. And when the defenders have way smaller numbers there's barely any opportunity to balance this out.
On top of that the "great" reward isn't really that great in my opinion. 20DP points are captured very quickly, and hugher DPs at normal rates. Highly upgraded points' progress bar still isn't that much slowed down, or that's at least what I think of it.

I understand that both parties get the same shot at using the same features, but because of allowing very outnumbered fights the highly active faction gets the advantage of it on their side, due to everything I mentioned above. The outnumber buff isn't sufficient to balance everything out with both of these features working like they are currently.
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