[Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

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[Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby Bryce Hart » 07 Jan 2019, 18:13

IC Name(s): Logan Oneill, Lilith Wolfy Postimies

Rules Broken: #4. No griefing or any other non-RP behavior.

Description: Both players were caught invading our HQ, disrupting the peace and privacy of our faction members. They weren’t invited to land and roam freely there in any moment.
In addition, they exploited the G seat feature of our parked leos to try and hide their presence inside the HQ.

Important to mention that this is not the first time they show this kind of behaviour.


Proof: Timestamp list not required, the described events can be easily identified on the footage.

A) Logan getting kicked off of G seat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKORQ2UOrg

B) Lilith being kicked off of G seat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G4ZS7D3pw4


Steam ID: Lilith Wolfy Postimies - STEAM_0:1:49819329
Steam ID: Logan Oneill - STEAM_0:0:60215176


EDIT: Modified description.
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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby nlsnnn » 07 Jan 2019, 19:51

Replying for Logan:

G seating into a leopard is not against the rules, it's an extra seat that can be accessed. The sole intent of G seating into enemy vehicles is to get information on the enemy and report back with it and so there is an RP reason for it. I don't see a reason for this PC being made as there was no rule breakage going on, me and Lilith were just there to gather IC info and report back with it in case you were capturing, which we wanted to make sure we knew about prior to it happening. I don't see a reason for this PC to have been made and so I have nothing else I have to say.


Also,

They weren’t invited to land and roam freely there in any moment.


That's called 'infiltration', or, as you'd call it if someone entered private premises 'breaking and entering'. I don't know what they did over there and if they did any roleplay (/me, /do), but you don't need and don't want to if you're doing reconnaissance or any other intelligence gathering stuffs. By the way, your HQ is not a safe space. If people want to do roleplay and infiltrate it, that's your loss if you don't catch them in there. But you did, and you repelled them from there.

I will concede that having people G seat into your Leopards or other AS at the time can be incredibly annoying, and if I were in the same position as you I'd feel the same way. If your people kept coming over here and using our Leopards' G seats, then I'd be just as annoyed and I'd want something done about it as well. It gets annoying when you have people come around like this every now and then and have to be paranoid about the feeling that people might be listening in. However, your base is not entitled to peace and privacy. You are an armed organisation, and to speak in realistic terms, I'm surprised that no one has cleaned your HQ off of the map at this point. There is a reason why security is a thing in the real world, and the reason being is that installations and private premises have the potential to be surreptitiously entered/infiltrated. Even with all the commotion, this is something you could've contacted us about in the first place since the proof was more than visible to us - we all saw them over there. All that was required was an email stating what the problem was and that you would like them out of there.

Now, personally, if you would like them reprimanded, I will take that into account and we will make a decision. I'm yet to hear what other people think of this, but personally I will say that a verbal warning is what I feel like must be done as of this point in time. Yes it has been done before, but I don't understand what part of it is non-RP. Annoying? Sure. Non-RP? Don't think so.
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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby Amy Michaels » 07 Jan 2019, 21:05

Posting on behalf of Callista
Repeatedly entering G-seat right in front of our eyes is just simply non-roleplay. It's not infiltration, no attempt at roleplay was made, and no attempt to sneak past was made. They just parachuted right in front of us and went in, likely to purposely to annoy/grief. I should add they were emailing us OOC and making comments about it as they were doing it, but we did not save screenshots of that so I will leave that up for your own interpretation.

I'd definitely expect some sort of alert in this case. Considering it was an elite who was doing it and encouraging it, we felt a PC was the best course of action.


I will put my input later.

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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby nlsnnn » 07 Jan 2019, 21:36

Logan's response again:

no attempt at roleplay was made



There's a reason no attempt at roleplay was made was because of two reasons. For one you never attempted any kind of roleplay, you simple just kicked me out and shot me, I didn't have time to roleplay. Secondly I can't roleplay when i'm being shot at by 3 different people, i'm not that fast of a typer. No one person is gonna roleplay after being caught in someone's base IRL because you're an intruder and infiltrating the place, you're gonna get some bullets flying towards you and so you're not just gonna be like "Oh my car broke down and I got lost". It simply wouldn't happen and so I physically couldn't roleplay to get out of the situation since you just shot me as soon as you saw me.


I'd also like to add that there's zero indictment as to how Logan and Lilith were 'repeatedly' entering a G-seat right in front of your eyes. Do feel free to give any other video evidence you have to show that this was, for one, not an infiltration attempt, but also non-roleplay. Taking from what I saw in the videos, as soon as they were forced out of the G-seat, they did not touch the Leopards again after that. Even Lilith, who suicided as soon as she was exposed, did not return to the HQ, and both had left you alone after that.

At this point in time, there is insufficient proof to illustrate that this was non-RP. I will admit that I have done this before for fun and games when there were only a few of you online in the night shift just to fool around and talk to some of you. I'm sure I could speak on behalf of Lilith and Logan in saying that the intent of this was the exact same. These are people who know the rules around here, but are people who are just looking to have fun in getting a reaction out of you - that's exactly what I went for when I used to do this. So no, I disagree that there was any malicious intent from these two. You'd be nuts to think that.

I don't like saying this, but so far all of the things that are being said are accusations. The video evidence provided only shows the fact that they were in G-seats and that they had left afterwards. So yes, if you didn't save screenshots of it, or have chronologically-constructed evidence of the event (longer videos), or have any other more condemning pieces of evidence that show that all of these accusations that have been made are true, then these two are innocent until proven guilty - that is, though they may have entered the G-seats, the rest of the accusations made remain untrue until they're physically shown. I'd like to believe your side because I want to try and remain as unbiased as possible, but without any actual evidence I'm not going to take any action that you might want from me. Sorry.

Along with that, I stand by my viewpoint that this is not non-RP. Prove me wrong.
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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby Amy Michaels » 08 Jan 2019, 08:41

nlsnnn wrote:
Also,

They weren’t invited to land and roam freely there in any moment.


That's called 'infiltration', or, as you'd call it if someone entered private premises 'breaking and entering'.I don't know what they did over there and if they did any roleplay (/me, /do), but you don't need and don't want to if you're doing reconnaissance or any other intelligence gathering stuffs. .


We do understand it's called infiltration but for the fact, if they just come to our HQ, G seat in a Leo or any AS for the purpose of griefing and/or spying on our OOC local and IC / other chats without doing any kind of Roleplay then It's something not allowed nor entertain, after all this is a roleplay server and there are rules and ways to enter into such RP rather than just doing it without any core purpose, solely purpose was to gather any OOC information or any other information which does not make any RP sense unless there was any kind of similar RP event which was going on or was being undertaken which I am sure there wasn't.


nlsnnn wrote:By the way, your HQ is not a safe space. If people want to do roleplay and infiltrate it, that's your loss if you don't catch them in there. But you did, and you repelled them from there.


As well for the fact that our HQ is not a safe place, then I do want to know why there exists rule 4, where people are told not to try to bomb someone HQ or attempt to invade someone HQ? For the fact it's the only safe place where faction members can do what they want, they are free to talk , chit chat and other stuff. I am sorry but I cannot agree with the statement that our or anyone HQ is not safe, it will not make sense to even have a HQ or home if we are not safe there, I repeat I am not discouraging RP but for the fact if they just G in without any RP reason then yes it's not what anyone here expects.


I will concede that having people G seat into your Leopards or other AS at the time can be incredibly annoying, and if I were in the same position as you I'd feel the same way. If your people kept coming over here and using our Leopards' G seats, then I'd be just as annoyed and I'd want something done about it as well. It gets annoying when you have people come around like this every now and then and have to be paranoid about the feeling that people might be listening in. However, your base is not entitled to peace and privacy. You are an armed organisation, and to speak in realistic terms, I'm surprised that no one has cleaned your HQ off of the map at this point. There is a reason why security is a thing in the real world, and the reason being is that installations and private premises have the potential to be surreptitiously entered/infiltrated. .


For the fact, this is a game where we try to roleplay things as I stated above. You saying our HQ is not a place for peace and stuff and real-life people would try to get in and do their investigation and what not, Okay I definitely agree that in real life people would do that, on other note in real life people actually go into someone base and try to destroy their Air support, in order to get some sort of advantage or stuff, but for the fact destroying enemies AS in their HQ in RLS is against rule 4, and it's a demotion and/or sever offence where in worst case you can even get banned from the server, in real life there are no such "rules". Now you see? there is a difference, this is Real life Roleplay Server and not Real life where we or anyone can actually just do that thing and get away with this IC excuse , hope It makes sense.


and for this,
Even with all the commotion, this is something you could've contacted us about in the first place since the proof was more than visible to us - we all saw them over there. All that was required was an email stating what the problem was and that you would like them out of there.


Okay, then again email who? For the fact Lilith who is Major in Enforcers, an elite was involved in such things, least we expect is an elite will do that and this is not acceptable behaviour from an experienced Elite of the faction. Whom should we have emailed that time? If Elites themselves do things like this, there is no point in emailing some other elite there rather making a player complaint is the only thing which can put some lights on this and Bryce/Roaches felt it was the only thing and way which we can do at that time.



Now, personally, if you would like them reprimanded, I will take that into account and we will make a decision. I'm yet to hear what other people think of this, but personally I will say that a verbal warning is what I feel like must be done as of this point in time..


I would even agree if it was done by some new player or newbie or some non-elite rank person, in this case, Logan but neither Logan nor Lilith are new, they are well versed with server rules and they should not be doing such things, we do expect something which is more than verbal warning here.

And,
Yes it has been done before, but I don't understand what part of it is non-RP. Annoying? Sure. Non-RP? Don't think so


So, entering into G seats of locked leos are RP? Please explain me how is that even making sense, it's birth obvious that if that AS is parked at HQ, it's going to be locked and there is no way that Logan and Lilith will be able to get into Leo G seat if it's locked, moreover it's an abuse of G seat feature, I agree it's not annoying but for the fact it's breaching of Rule #4 aka Non-RP and Griefing.

Not to mentioned, even lead dev already have mentioned in discord that doing such a thing is clearly a breach of Rule #4

Image


Hence we do expect some sort of severe and/or at least something which is not just a verbal warning should be issued here.

And to reply Logan response,

There's a reason no attempt at roleplay was made was because of two reasons. For one you never attempted any kind of roleplay, you simple just kicked me out and shot me, I didn't have time to roleplay. Secondly I can't roleplay when i'm being shot at by 3 different people, i'm not that fast of a typer. No one person is gonna roleplay after being caught in someone's base IRL because you're an intruder and infiltrating the place, you're gonna get some bullets flying towards you and so you're not just gonna be like "Oh my car broke down and I got lost". It simply wouldn't happen and so I physically couldn't roleplay to get out of the situation since you just shot me as soon as you saw me.


I agree but for the fact why we should even attempt to start any kind of Roleplay in first place, you guys have to gather intel ICly, then it's by your end who needs to start some sort of Roleplay scenario or coming in some sort of disguise to initiate such roleplay rather just G' ing into someone Leo , will definitely won't make them think twice before and will surely start shooting you down.

and
G seating into a leopard is not against the rules, it's an extra seat that can be accessed. The sole intent of G seating into enemy vehicles is to get information on the enemy and report back with it and so there is an RP reason for it. I don't see a reason for this PC being made as there was no rule breakage going on, me and Lilith were just there to gather IC info and report back with it in case you were capturing, which we wanted to make sure we knew about prior to it happening. I don't see a reason for this PC to have been made and so I have nothing else I have to say.


I agree it's not against the rule to G seat in a vehicle which is unlocked but as explained by me above that vehicle was not unlocked and it's definitely against the rules to enter into such vehicle.
And there are other ways to actually gather IC intel whether we were preparing for the cap on you or not, definitely this isn't the right way to do so.

nlsnnn wrote:I don't like saying this, but so far all of the things that are being said are accusations. The video evidence provided only shows the fact that they were in G-seats and that they had left afterwards. So yes, if you didn't save screenshots of it, or have chronologically-constructed evidence of the event (longer videos), or have any other more condemning pieces of evidence that show that all of these accusations that have been made are true, then these two are innocent until proven guilty - that is, though they may have entered the G-seats, the rest of the accusations made remain untrue until they're physically shown. I'd like to believe your side because I want to try and remain as unbiased as possible, but without any actual evidence I'm not going to take any action that you might want from me. Sorry.

Along with that, I stand by my viewpoint that this is not non-RP. Prove me wrong.


They didn't leave on their own, fact was they were exposed during that hour and they had to, not to mention it is not the first time they have done this but you are right, since we do not have any evidence of them doing it before, I will not argue on that but yes evidence clearly is sufficient enough here since it was all recorded.

And yes, that's non RP , period.

That's all I want to say.

P.S sorry for replying in descending order of replies, I was on mobile so couldn't actually scroll up and later it just messed up.

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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby nlsnnn » 09 Jan 2019, 22:56

Logan's response:

if they just come to our HQ, G seat in a Leo or any AS for the purpose of griefing and/or spying on our OOC local and IC / other chats without doing any kind of Roleplay then It's something not allowed nor entertain



Okay well first of all there was no intent to grief of any kind and why would you roleplay spying on someone because a lot of people wouldn't say anything ICly anymore since they know someone is literally listening to what they have to say. If you know i'm there, even OOCly only, you're not gonna reveal anything that I can actually report back with.
As well for the fact that our HQ is not a safe place, then I do want to know why there exists rule 4, where people are told not to try to bomb someone HQ or attempt to invade someone HQ?



There's a difference between infiltration and invasion. An invasion tends to take multiple people coming in guns blazing and blowing your shit up where this case was literally just me and Lilith trying to sneak in and gather intel on you. Essentially what we did was just scouting but on a more intense level so rather than flying by and getting the odd few sentences pop up in chat, we were getting the whole thing. HQ is not a safe place since you're gonna get spies there and people infiltrating your HQ to get information.
on other note in real life people actually go into someone base and try to destroy their Air support,



Okay but that wasn't the case here? I'm not sure why you want to bring up something that didn't even happen. Yeah you're right IRL people go there to sabotage air craft and vehicles to gain an advantage but that's not what happened here. It was purely a recon mission where I went to gain information on your faction about upcoming strategies and attacks.

but for the fact destroying enemies AS in their HQ in RLS is against rule 4



This literally has nothing to do with the PC as it didn't happen, all I did was G seat into the leo and you can't even damage A/S in other people's HQ so I really don't understand why you have decided to bring this up. Yeah it's against the rules but it wasn't even done.

Whom should we have emailed that time? If Elites themselves do things like this, there is no point in emailing some other elite there rather making a player complaint



Just because one elite has done it in this incident doesn't mean that R5s have. You could have waited maybe a day tops for Jocelyn to be online and he could have dealt with it and you could have even sent a DM to one of the R5s but you rushed straight to a PC that literally is gonna waste more of your time than actually do anything for you. A simple 30 minute talk maximum with Jocelyn or the other R5s would have solved this for you and you wouldn't have to keep responding to PC replies.

I agree but for the fact why we should even attempt to start any kind of Roleplay in first place


I never said you should but my response in terms of you not roleplaying was based on Callista's response of saying that we didn't roleplay when you physically can't because you're being shot at so it's pointless. Like I said in my previous response, I was shot straight away upon being found and so I physically had no time to attempt any roleplay since I would have died before completing my sentence. You seriously can't expect someone to RP while they're getting bullets rammed into them.

And there are other ways to actually gather IC intel whether we were preparing for the cap on you or not, definitely this isn't the right way to do so.



Okay yeah there's scouting or sitting on the highlighted point but clearly they're not as effective. Scouting just makes you pull a sentinel out and shoot me down and sitting on a highlighted point literally just discourages you because if you start putting vehicles there i'm gonna know where you're capping and literally have rotor ready to come in and destroy you. Getting close to you was the only effective way I could think of as I'd be able to listen in on everything that you are doing at that time and then i'd know for sure if you were going to cap or not.

TL;DR: you're going to have to explain to me why 'keys' are needed to open a fighter jet, because you only use keys on small GA aircraft like Cessnas and Pipers. Along with that, despite keeri's input, I still do not understand what part of it is non-RP if real ground crews are required to open the canopy using a canopy disengage switch adjacent to the extension ladder for the aircraft. That is accessible and, logically, should be accessible because ground crews will be required to do maintenance inside the cockpit and will need to open it for the Pilot to get inside.

Also, you had both Walter and myself to email for the situation. I don't understand what you mean by "whom else should we have emailed".

Let me add this in now because it seems like the rest of the Elites have been taking too much time. If the "leos at HQ are locked", then why can we get into them in the first place? You realise that you do not need keys to get into or even start up a fighter jet in the first place, right? If the canopy is closed, then there is a side panel close to the extension ladder that you can open and access to re-open the canopy. It's used by ground crew, and it does make sense that you'd leave the canopy closed because of weather (unless the jet's rested under a hangar). On a side note, I don't even want to explain how starting up a fighter jet with keys is an incredibly stupid idea. That's off the topic anyways. The fact of the matter is that if the Leos were locked, then it does not explain how you can get into them. Along with that, you have no idea if they unlocked the Leopards using some RP device or not - in your words, let's say they used a 'lockpick'.

I have to concede and realise where I can't solve things, and that's with what keeri has had to say. If he is saying that it is non-RP, then I can't really debate that. You've reached out to the lead developer and questioned the whole situation, and you've gathered your confirmation. I have to commend you for that, and I honestly have to say that you've done well in gathering that. But I'm going to keep playing my cards until we get a full resolution: what if they did RP using a lockpick and even /outcome to climb into the back of the Leopards? To say no, that would mean that you'd physically have to show everyone here that it was so; that these people just straight up went in and sat in the back there. I find it quite funny that you can't climb into the Pilot's seat and will get kicked out of there for it, but for some strange reason you can climb into the back seat. That tells me that the vehicle actually isn't locked or even half-locked in the first place. If someone tells you that you can't access somewhere because it's non-RP, what happens if you go and RP to make it possible? This is like saying that if a door is locked, but you can still get into it, you can't RP to get through it in the first place. You have no idea if they RP'd or not during this, and so I'm going to ask you that if you can't show that they didn't RP getting into those Leopards, I'm going to call it off - I'm done with my end here.

I'm going to say now that I'm not attacking you or any of the Roach Elites/whoever else may be representing the situation. There's a lot of things I agree with in what you're saying, and that if the lead dev has claimed that it's non-RP, I can't really say much else. However, I will say that there are still plenty of loopholes, and that you're going to have to further elaborate on the situation. Just because someone says that you can't open one door, it doesn't mean that you can't find any other way around it. You have no clue if either of these two set up a RP situation or chose to unlock the canopies from the sides, and then disengaged the release mechanism from the inside in the Pilot's console. If you go infiltrate our HQ with the intent of stealing information, go to a console or some platform with sensitive information that is supposedly encrypted or 'locked', and roleplay getting past it and taking the information, does that mean it's non-RP? That's my question. It's a completely different situation, but this is what's being implied. I don't want this cleared up only for the PC, but also in general - I have done these infiltrations plenty of times, and I'd prefer to know now before I end up doing it again.

Also, to address the whole 'safe space' fiasco, I never said that you can go and bomb someone's HQ or go do a mass invasion on it. Essentially that argument was a straw man my own point so it'd suit a specific kind of narrative. No one is saying that you can go and bomb someone's HQ - that's obviously against rule 4, yes. What I AM saying is that you're not entitled to general peace and privacy at your HQ, and thus it's not a 'safe space'. You have (or should have) guards for a reason, and you've just chosen to find a way around that by bringing that whole concept of how you can't bomb someone's HQ into it. People can come into your HQ when they like, but they certainly can't bomb it or attack any of your AS/GS there. People can come and spy on your HQ, but they certainly can't bomb it or attack any of your AS/GS there. Again, I'm not attacking you as a person, Amy. You're a good person. But there some things missing in what you've said.

I realise that what I'm arguing right now is something complex, and that's because I've made it so. I'm not in the best mindset, so I apologise if I'm saying really irrational things in the PC. Because of this, I'm genuinely going to need other Elites to comment on the situation - I'm holding my opinion on the Enforcers' side, and this opinion on its own won't be enough to properly determine what needs to be done here. Currently, I think that this discussion is not over - even if keeri has said that it's not RP. The whole reason why I keep perpetuating this is because it doesn't make sense to me. I have played plenty of flight simulators in my time growing up, and I can tell you now that people can access fighter jets and sit inside them from the outside. If the canopy isn't already open, you can open a side panel and access it from the outside like ground crew would. Now, I'm not saying that they can go and steal them - that's not fair, and that's a completely different point. However, these two people - as stupid as it were in retrospect - literally climbed into your Leopards and did absolutely nothing aside from listen in to what was going on around there. If, realistically, you can access a fighter jet from the outside, and that they did absolutely nothing to any of your property besides sit inside them, I don't understand what you're arguing about. I would definitely agree with you if they attacked any of your AS/GS and tried to grief it, because that's absolutely unacceptable - no matter the circumstances. However, as aforementioned, nothing was harmed - you people chose to make this argument because it bothered you.

Also, there isn't any sufficient evidence provided. Only sufficient evidence given was video proof showing that they were there in the first place, and that they tried to make an escape. I'm actually more than inclined to just /alert these two, since I seriously don't want to deal with this ridiculous argument anymore. If keeri says that it's non-RP, then I'll make my stand once, but otherwise I'm probably just going to /alert them and have this thing resolved. If I can't argue in terms of realism, I won't dare try and argue anymore at all since there's no point. However, I stand by my claim. Say it's non-RP, but I've justified why I believe otherwise, and I stand by it because of my experiences with flight simulators and my experience on this server. I remain unchanged until you show me how this was non-RP after the justification I've provided, and until you show that they haven't roleplayed to make the situation 'RP' if it's supposedly 'non-RP'. That's all I have to say.
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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby Bryce Hart » 10 Jan 2019, 02:23

While "realism" may be a reasonable argument, it's simply not how the system on RLS works. The fact is that all AS at HQ is locked, as stated by keeri. The technicalities are unspecified but that's all; it's a feature that is implemented for the betterment of the server. If there are other suggestions on how to implement it, it would be better for the Ideas and Suggestions forum, rather than trying to dissect it here. As for the other argument, the burden of proof lies on Logan and Lilith to prove that they roleplayed prior to forcing their way into our AS.

I stand by the opinion that proper punishment is needed here. We can discuss the terms privately if needed, however we at least expect an alert for #4 and preferably removal of any rank increase that was issued during the course of the PC.
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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby nlsnnn » 10 Jan 2019, 05:21

Here is Logan's next and final response:

While "realism" may be a reasonable argument, it's simply not how the system on RLS works



RLS stands for Real Life Server and you're saying there is no realism? I'm sorry but you might as well say that RLS doesn't stand for Real Life Server.

it's a feature that is implemented for the betterment of the server.



Please do explain how it betters the server for anyone. It's an extra seat for someone to sit in and if

The fact is that all AS at HQ is locked



then why am I able to get into the G seat of it? It doesn't make any sense.

As for the other argument, the burden of proof lies on Logan and Lilith to prove that they roleplayed prior to forcing their way into our AS.



I'm sorry but you're the one PCing me and you decided to hide the chat in your video. You made the PC so you actually have to prove that i'm guilty which you have failed to do in terms of the roleplay aspect.

preferably removal of any rank increase that was issued during the course of the PC.



There was no rank increase. The removal of stripes in the Enforcers is not based on ranks, like it is in the rebel factions, it is based on role capabilities.

Now, on my end, I raised a lot of eyebrows with the length of one of my replies. Let's not raise another eye and let me make myself clear:

It seems to me that you just chose to ignore the meat of what I said in my reply. That's understandable, because what I posted was way too long and filled with content that no one wanted to read it - that was evident from the Discord. However, you, as the R5 of the faction and the person making the PC, should at least take the time to even just dissect at least some of what I've said and at least choose to answer it instead of just ignoring it and saying that you expect action. How are you going to expect action if you don't want to continue the discussion and get to a resolution? I've raised reasonable points in there, and it seems to me that you think you can just get a solution by ignoring most of it and just saying that realism isn't existent or isn't an aspect of a 'Real Life Server'. I just don't want to bother arguing that point, seriously.

Along with that, the burden of proof does not lie on Logan and Lilith proving themselves. This is off-topic, but in New Zealand they are planning on incorporating that kind of system into the law. That is a horrible way of thinking and a horrible way of handling crime/conflict. You know why? Because, let's say, for example, if you walk by a girl on the sidewalk and wave at them, and for some stupid reason she decides to go to the police and say that you sexually assaulted her, that would mean that you have to prove yourself that you did not sexually assault her. It seems to me that you are trying to shift the responsibility of recording to these two. I can understand that it would be difficult to collect that kind of information, but you made the PC and are claiming that they didn't RP, so you need to gather the evidence. Not us.

For the sake of me just not wanting to continue posting on this anymore, I will take action against both of them by having the Elites /alert them both for Rule 4, and I will take Logan's stripe off as well if that suits your desires. I refuse to continue arguing when the opposing side has shown that they do not have any interest in continuing the discussion anymore, and so I will just have them punished so this stops - I simply just don't want to deal with this post anymore in all honesty, and didn't want to in the start.

Once their punishments are issued, I recommend closure.
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Be extraordinary,
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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby nlsnnn » 10 Jan 2019, 23:13

Logan's punishment:
Image


Lilith's punishment:
Verbal warning. We believed that it was necessary to just hold a verbal warning against her. If you're unhappy with it, feel free to consult Walter or Jocelyn. I have done my part and no longer have the interest to reply here any longer.

I now recommend closure and am done here.
Life will go by in the blink of an eye.
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Seize the day.

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Re: [Enforcers] Logan Oneill / Lilith Wolfy Postimies - #4

Postby Patepostimies » 10 Jan 2019, 23:40

To quickly elaborate on the verdict from our end. With neither Logan nor Lilith having malicious intent to grief or otherwise harm the integrity of the Roaches, we have deemed this as a minor infraction. Lilith has had a clear record for over 2 years and is an exemplary elite so we have taken no further action in-game against him. They have both since received forum warnings. I admit I was unaware of the fact that the events here were indeed in breach of #4 and would like to apologize on the Enforcers behalf. This will never happen again.

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